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Romancing the Customer:

Why email is the heartbeat of a digital relationship




Email may not have changed much over the years, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t still one of the most valuable tools in a marketer’s kit. And with 43% of consumers preferring to hear weekly from companies, there’s even more reason to revisit your email strategy.

In this webinar hosted by Jay Baer, President of Convince & Convert, you’ll learn:

  • • The biggest daily challenge marketers say they face (and how email can help overcome it)

  • • That email can support all other digital marketing efforts

  • • Why email is the key to building long-term customer relationships

Jamie: Hello, everybody, welcome to today’s presentation, “Romancing the Customer – Why Email is the Heartbeat of a Digital Relationship.” Just a little housekeeping before we kick it off, we will send a recording of today’s presentation via email, so do not worry if you need to hop off or if you just wanna share this with everyone that you know – which we would love. We gotcha covered. We’ll also share a extra special URL with you, where you can download the new e-book that goes along with this presentation called, “Why Email Holds the Key to Lasting Customer Relationships.”

And we have some other webinar-related goodies that you will learn about today. You can also, again, head to that URL afterwards—it’ll be—to, you know, peruse all of the goodies, as I said. And lastly, you are muted today, so scream, shout, do whatever you want, we can’t hear you. You can submit your questions directly into the GoToWebinar chat module – we’ll scoop those up as we go. We did get a ton of amazing questions, though, at registration, so we’ve got those loaded. Locked and loaded and ready to go. And so for today, my guest here, and the content master who’s leading a…leading the way, is this guy. So today we’ve got Jay Baer. Hey, Jay.

Jay: Jamie, what’s going on? Fantastic to be here with you and friends at Emma. Thanks for having me.

Jamie: Yeah. He is the founder of Convince & Convert Media, which is the division that owns the world’s number one content marketing blog, multiple podcasts, and many other educational resources for business owners and executives. That’s you – you guys on the line today. He’s the creator of five multimillion dollar companies, and is also an active venture capitalist and technology advisor. My favorite thing about Jay is that he’s an avid tequila collector, and New York Times best-selling author, digital business celebrity. You can reach him on Twitter, you could email him at

Jay: You should email me, obviously, since that what we’re talking about.

Jamie: Exactly, it’s personal. You’ll learn more about email in a moment. And who am I, babbling at you? I’m Jamie Bradley, I’m the customer marketing manager here at Emma. I am not a New York Times best-selling author…

Jay: Yet.

Jamie: Yet. In case you were wondering. You can tweet at us at Emma, @emmaemail, you can also email me, I am clearly busy at the moment and will not be checking my email, as I pay attention to…

Jay: Well I’m checking my email right now, you know, my phone in my…I’ve got my phone in my other hand because I am multitasking.

Jamie: Oh my gosh. Well I have to pay attention to other stuff and make sure…

Jay: I also have a bobblehead…

Jamie: know, you just [inaudible 00:02:36].

Jay: my hand, so when you check the video for this, you’ll be able to see the bobblehead.

Jamie: Yeah, we are. We’re actually recording ourselves for better for worse right now, so the recording that you get will be extra special [inaudible 00:02:49].

Jay: Yeah, I hope you guys watch the recording because I actually got dressed for this, right? So…

Jamie: I know.

Jay: know, plus…

Jamie: I put on makeup. I’m wearing a tunic, I have statement earrings on, that you can’t see. It’s gonna be great, yes.

Jay: Wow, statement earrings. I didn’t know that was a saying, but I like it.

Jamie: Oh yeah. No, they’re bold, they’re out there, they’re great, they’re [inaudible 00:03:04]...

Jay: Yeah, I can’t wait to see that. Do you have a…

Jamie: I know.

Jay: ...statement tunic? Because I wanna know what that would be like.

Jamie: You know, the statement I’m making is just a tasteful floral.

Jay: Nice.

Jamie: That’s what we’re doing today.

Jay: Fair enough. It’s something.

Jamie: All right. So Jay, take it away here, tell us how to romance our customers. There’s our housekeeping, again… Oh yes, and the hashtag is #romancethecustomer, and again, you’re going to get a recording, there is a free e-book, there is a hashtag. You guys are…you’re set, so…

Jay: Hey, do we wanna tell’em about the free e-book? We wanna tell’em more about that?

Jamie: Yeah, so we…Jay partnered with us, wrote an amazing e-book, again, that is called, “Why Email Holds the Key to Lasting Customer Relationships.” You actually were prompted, when you registered, to download that immediately, but it’s fantastic. And we’re going to cover some of the topics here today, but really, it’s just about using emails to get…

Jay: Yeah, man, so if you’re too lazy to read, this is the greatest webinar of all time.

Jamie: It’s pretty fantastic, but yeah, it’s a great sort of handout/takeaway – also great to share with your teams if you don’t want them listening to the dulcet tones of Jay Baer.

Jay: It’ll be safe for work.

Jamie: Yeah, exactly.

Jay: So I’ve been…I have been doing this a long time, Jamie—I am deceptively youthful-looking when you check the video. I have been in digital for almost 25 years now, and email is the Mick Jagger of digital. That is my assessment here. True story—when I started in business, we didn’t have email. It was pre-email and we actually had to get up out of our chairs and go see people. It was an amazing time.

Jamie: My gosh.

Jay: So, here is how I think email’s like Mick Jagger – it’s changed a little, but it’s still basically the same. But it’s still sexy, and it’s vibrant, and more than anything else, it’s necessary. We cannot succeed as a species without Mick Jagger.

Jamie: So true.

Jay: And I think one of the challenges that email has as a marketing discipline is that maybe it hasn’t changed enough. Like, so much of what else we do in digital is all about change. And social’s, of course, about change, and search changes all the time, and a lot of the other kinda nodes of digital marketing change all the time. So maybe one of email’s reputational issues is that maybe it hasn’t changed enough and so now we just kinda take it for granted. Like, we just assume the Rolling Stones will always be around.

And that’s partially because, while there have been some, you know, tweaks to the email scenario, it really is still relies on the same basic formula: it’s copy, it’s images, it’s subscribers. It’s the same pieces that it’s been since the very beginning. But the worst thing you can do—the absolute worst thing you can do as a digital marketer, is to start to tune out email. To think, oh, well I am…I’m in a post-email era, I don’t need email. I’m going to move on to, you know, Blink 182, or whatever is the…whatever follows the Rolling Stones. It’s probably not Blink 182, that was a terrible analogy. I shoulda prepped that.

Jamie: I like it. Maybe Bruno Mars.

Jay: I should’ve prepped that before, though, I’m… Maybe Bruno Mars. Okay, yeah…

Jamie: Yeah?

Jay: ...I’ll buy that. Yeah.

Jamie: Okay.

Jay: So if email is Mick Jagger, social media’s Bruno Mars. Yes, I’ll buy that.

Jamie: Perfect.

Jay: That’s good, Jamie, thank you. So, I believe – and I think when people give this some thought, they will concur – that email is still the only, and I mean this, the only required marketing tactic. It’s the only one that you absolutely have to do. Email is an absolute necessity in daily life. You hear about people taking a social media break, like, “Hey, I’m going on a hiatus and I’m not gonna be on Facebook for a month.” Nobody ever goes on an email hiatus—because your whole life would fall apart. Like, you couldn’t actually function. The first thing you do when you get a new job, the first thing you do when you enroll in college is, you get an email address.

It is your passport to your entire life. Like, we talk all the time now about, “Hey, you…we should do…we should Netflix and chill, we should watch some of that Hulu, we should, you know, see what kinda shows we can binge.” You can’t do any of that without an email address. There is no Netflix, there is no “chill” without email. It is the fundamental core of everything that we are allowed to do online in our entire lives. There is no “put on Spotify and have a candlelight dinner with your sweetie” without email. Why? Because you can’t get a Spotify account without email, Jack. However, I’m a big Spotify fan – Jamie is as well.

Jamie: I am.

Jay: She dropped in a fantastic Bruno Mars reference just moments ago. So we collaborated – Emma, Convention & Convert – to put together, for you ladies and gentlemen, here on the webinar, the ultimate Romancing the Customer playlist.

Jamie: Yeah, it’s pretty great, you know. And it’s got some romantic songs, it’s got some platonic songs, you know. We just wanna get closer to you via this playlist, and so, again, we’ll send this out after the fact, but If ya’ just can’t wait, hop on there…

Jay: Yeah, go get it on right now, a little background music during the webinar. Since you’re muted, you could be listening to this right now…

Jamie: Yeah. Blare “Love Shack.”

Jay: ...during the webinar. And then, yeah…

Jamie: Please.

Jay: ...but just go…or just go check it out and see which songs you like the best, put it in the chat, and I think you’re really gonna love it.

Jamie: Agree.

Jay: So, put that together for you, just for this webinar. How important is email? Like, how alive and kicking? How Mick Jaggerish is email still today? These numbers are extraordinary, they’re almost too big to resonate, but there are 269 billion – billion – emails sent every single day this year. And people, they go, “Email is fading away, email’s not gonna be important” – that number is going to increase to 320 billion by the year 2021. So email volume is actually going up, not down.

Jamie: It’s crazy.

Jay: It’s crazy, it’s a lot. And we think, well, one of the reasons that email might sorta fade away, is that people don’t like it. And look, nobody ever says, “You know what I’d like to get? I’d like to get a whole bunch of more email.” The reason people say that is because a lot of the email they get is irrelevant, but when people get relevant email, they love it. And we’ll talk about that more today. But 43% of consumers say that they want to hear from brands every single week.

Now, look, I’m not going to acknowledge or tell you something that’s not obvious, there are other ways that we tend to communicate interpersonally now that formerly were in the email domain: SMS, for example, DMs on Twitter, Facebook Messenger, Instagram DMs, Snapchat. Like, there’s all these other places that are essentially instant messaging functions that we use to communicate, but those are not typically brand to consumer, it’s person-to-person. It’s me asking Jamie how much does she love my bobblehead – you can check the video for that right now.

Jamie: I hear it.

Jay: You can hear it, right?

Jamie: Mm-hmm.

Jay: It’s an audio bobblehead. So some of those messages, of course, are now not in email, but between brands, and businesses, and customers, and consumers, that is still email, partially because people actually want it that way.

Jamie: Absolutely.

Jay: And most importantly, for all us all here, email actually works. It continues to work, it is the workhorse of digital marketing. Forty-seven percent of marketers – one out of two – say that email generates more ROI than any other channel. It is the number one most effective thing that you do. And more than half of all marketers say that they plan to increase email spend over the next 12 months. So those are not symptoms of a tool or a technology that is in decline, is actually quite the opposite. We have more emails being sent, we have more money being spent, and we have an increasing level of effectiveness.

Well, why is that true? Well, like, why does email work? Why does email still matter so much to marketers? Why is email Mick Jagger instead of some kind of one-hit wonder? I think there’s a few different reasons. The one that I point to most often is the fact that in comparison to other digital tactics currently available to the marketer, email is essentially the only one that offers what I like to call “reliable reach.” As most of us know, reach equals the number of people that see your message, reliable reach is when you can actually dictate when that message is seen, and/or under what circumstances.

So, if I send an email to my list of subscribers – assuming the mail servers are working, and the email address is formatted correctly – that customer will actually get the email. Now, it may potentially go in their spam folder, they may not open it, they may not click on it, but they’re gonna get it. It will actually show up in their world, it will become part of their universe. Whereas, if you decide to try to communicate to your customers, and fans, and prospects, and subscribers via something like Facebook, what percentage of your total audience is going to even see what you put out there? One percent? Half of 1%?

So email is still the only way that you can have reliable reach. This is functionality that no other digital platform can match, even today. Social is “unreliable reach,” this is why you sorta get high-five fail. They’re like, “Yeah, social’s awesome. Let’s do social to reach out to our customers,” but the problem is, even when you’re really good at social, like Emma is, you’re still reaching a small cross-section of your actual customer base. The reach is unreliable. Now, that’s by no means to suggest that social is unimportant, or irrelevant, or that you shouldn’t do it. You should.

Jamie: Sure.

Jay: But to think that social is some kind of replacement, or runs parallel to email, or that it does the same thing, is just not well thought through.

Jamie: Absolutely. And I’ll kick in here. So, you know, at Emma, we’re an email marketing company, if you found us another way. We send a lot of emails, so this is a good webinar for us to be doing together. So this example here you see is from The Escape Games, this is one of our clients. If you are unfamiliar, uninitiated, The Escape Game is a recreational activity where you pay these people to lock you in a room for fun – which sounds horrifying to me, or sounded horrifying to me – and so they kinda know that they’ve got that going for’em.

They know that half of the population that’s like, “Yeah, it sounds really fun to do brainteasers with my coworkers and pay you to let me out of a room.” Or bachelorettes, or whoever else you’re with. Then there’s the other half that’s like, “Yeah, that sounds not what I wanna do after a few beers.” I am happy to report that they offered to do a teambuilding exercise with us. I went, I did a game, and I had a blast. I actually did not escape, it’s the saddest bumper sticker that I own.

Jay: You’re still there, yeah.

Jamie: I’m in there, I’m reporting live from The Escape Game right now, but I went and I had a blast. And the point of that is to say that, just like with most businesses, especially true for The Escape Game, it’s easier to sell to someone who already knows your brand, are a current customer. It’s that adage that it’s much more expensive for you to acquire a new customer than it is to just resell to someone that already is having a great experience with you. So, that translating into the email world in this sort of reliable, predictable reach here… You know, The Escape Game, all they’re doing is, they’re taking a list of everyone that has played a game.

They don’t know if they had fun or not but hopefully they did, and they’ve…they are taking a list of who played the game, and then they’re actually just going one step further and making it location-specific and making sure that that template, that wrapper, the actual click-through experience is cohesive. You even see there along the bottom, that that content well is dynamic per template, so if I’m in Nashville and I played The Heist, I know, oh, hey, I…there’s Mission to Mars and there is a gold rush game. I didn’t know that. So, just really great way to subtly sort of resell and let them know that there is diversity in their product, there are other rooms.

And the reason that this is such a great example of what Jay was just discussing is, with very little information – just with an email address and knowing that they showed up and played a game – they’re…in the first month when they launched this, they resold 200 games.

Jay: Wow.

Jamie: Two hundred people that probably wouldn’t have come back, who may have just seen a tweet and said, “Oh yeah, that wasn’t that fun, I’m gonna scroll past and read the news now.” Because this came to them, because there was a code, because they reduced all the friction, this email specifically…this retargeting has become a predictable revenue stream for them, and they are now figuring out other ways that they can add in sort of retargeting efforts, specifically with email. Which is really great. You wouldn’t necessarily think that that’s the audience for The Escape Game, but, you know, it’s…it translates to all kinds of businesses, so…

Jay: I love it, I wanna go do that.

Jamie: I know. It was fun, I had a blast, I was not terrified.

Jay: Which one did you do?

Jamie: I did The Heist – which, you know, it seemed kinda like those Catherine Zeta-Jones… You know, there were no lasers, though, but…

Jay: Too bad.

Jamie: And I did cheat and I still didn’t win, so…

Jay: Wow.

Jamie: ...there is blood…let that be a lesson to ya’.

Jay: Yeah, exactly. So I think, for some of the reasons that Jamie just described, that email is the glue of digital, right? It is the core of the whole thing. Email can, and I would argue, should, be coordinated and synchronized and integrated with all of your other digital initiatives because, as we’ve talked about, customers want email, email works, and email almost unilaterally offers reliable reach. So there’s a lotta things that you can do with email, plus other things, to make sure overall digital marketing better.

So email plus content marketing, for example—if you want to gain the trust of your audience, you need to first extend a gift of quality content that I call that “utility,” per my book by the same name. What you want to do, in my estimation, is make much of your best content freely available on your website and other places and you give people great content, and then you ask for email afterwards, not necessarily at the beginning. So as people get deeper and deeper and deeper in the funnel, then you start to gather their email address, and then you can send some fantastically specific and relevant emails to them, as The Escape Game does. You can also look at how email and search work together. Same idea.

Let’s say you’re going to create a cool landing page and you’re going to optimize that landing page for organic search, maybe some paid search as well, some SEM. On that landing page you might have a terrific content asset that is featured on the landing page, maybe you don’t ask for email address at that time. You allow them to download this nifty thing for free without information, but then afterwards, then you say,“Hey, would you like another great thing?” Then you ask for email then, right? So it’s a second stage email collection instead of a gate at the very beginning. Another option, of course, email and social. As we talked about a minute ago, lotsa things you can do there.

I do a fair bit of social media advertising, not only for my own company, but for our clients at Convince & Convert Consulting, and there’s lots of great opportunities now, and more all the time, to use social media ads to generate email subscriptions immediately using what they call “lead gen ads.” Very easy to do, very effective, something to think about there – building your email list through social media ads. You can also, as Jamie mentioned, use remarketing and retargeting ads on a place like Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, to double down on your email content. So imagine this – imagine you’re only gonna show Facebook ads to people who have open the last three emails from The Escape Room. Right? So you have a very targeted, highly engaged audience. You can also do some things where you incorporate social media behaviors into the email.

So, let’s say you’re fairly active on Instagram and you’re gonna do 10 Instagram posts a week. In your weekly email update you could say, “This is our most liked Instagram photo of the week,” you put that into your email, so it’s gonna tie in those two things together. And you can also merchandise customer testimonials, great tweets, great Facebook comments, great Pinterest comments, etc., pull those into your email as well. So you’re kind of using some of your social media interactions with customers to create interesting email content. Certainly video is becoming more and more important in terms its applicability to all things content, marketing, and digital—and email is no different.

Using multipart video content, it’s a great way to introduce useful content to your audience, so what you might do is say, “All right, we’re going to have a four video series. We’re gonna give you the first video and the second video just, you know, without any sort of intermediary or obstacle. If you wanna get the third video, however, we’re going to ask you for your email address.” Then you know somebody is pretty locked in to your program, because they’ve already watched two whole videos, and then you can have them unlock the rest of the videos by providing an email at that point.

Same thing with a webinar series. If you had a multiple webinar series, you could say, “Hey, we’re not even going to ask for your email,” you could just show up for this webinar. And then at…after the webinar we say, “Would you like to find out about the next one?” and then we collect your email address there. We shoulda done that this time, Jamie. We coulda done that.

Jamie: I know.

Jay: Next time.

Jamie: Next time.

Jay: And then of course, on your website, a huge and important way to tie emails together, one of the things that has been true in the email business for a really long time, but we don’t talk about it as much as we used to, is making sure when you’re asking people to subscribe to something, that you’re doing it in the right way. And so, you need to make sure people understand why you’re collecting what you’re collecting. It drives me crazy when people have, like, super detailed sign-up forms on their website and it’s like, you don’t need to know my fax number.

Jamie: Right, right.

Jay: Like, you just really don’t. There’s no circumstances by which this is information that needs to be in your database. Every single field that you add to a sign-up form reduces response rate, period. Period. There is no resource to suggest otherwise, so the very best way is to have one field – “What is your email address?” Second best way would be first name and email address. Third best way would be first name, last name, email address, right? So every field you add reduces response rate, and that you also need to make sure that when you’re saying, “You’re going to sign up to receive X,” that you actually send them X.

There’s a lot of, “Well, we got their email address, like, three years ago for this other thing, so…but we figure that we still have it because we got it then.” And now you send them a bunch of stuff, so like, I don’t even recognize this content.

Jamie: Right.

Jay: And when that happens, your unsubscribes go up, your sender reputation goes down, and your whole email program starts to fray at the seams a little bit. Would you agree with that, Jamie?

Jamie: I would definitely agree. And it’s challenging, whether you’re an ESP or just getting started. I mean, it’s definitely something that…to balance.

Jay: And obviously Emma’s got lotsa resources specifically around those points—how to increase conversion rate when you ask for email addresses, how to make sure your deliverability stays high, etc. And I think he probably had some questions around some of those points as well, that we’ll talk about in a minute.

Jamie: Yep.

Jay: Third thing is that email is not only the glue of digital, but it’s also the laboratory of digital. I am a big believer in using email to test digital marketing circumstances that can then be rolled out in other digital marketing nodes. So one of the things that email offers is a very easy testing circumstance, right? So you can do A/B tests in email, you can isolate results, you can isolate variables, you get results back very quickly. You can just test and email easier than you can test in other places, so I’m a big fan of using emails to test messaging, to test time of day, to test day of week, to test imagery, to test headlines, to test calls to action, and then use those lessons learned and roll them into other parts of your digital ecosystem.

So, for example, let’s say you wanted to test a subject line or a headline – you know, sort of a main kind of, you know, piece of copy – you could say, “All right, let’s send out an A/B/C/D test. We’re going to take 4 different options, we’re going to split our list with Emma 25% across the board. So segment A gets Headline A, segment B gets Headline B, segment C gets Headline C, and segment D gets Headline D.” And then you send that email out and you see which one generates the highest open rate, and if you see distinctive results – you see one that really outperforms the other three – you take that same headline and you use it as a blog post, you use it as a Facebook ad, you use it as a paid search headline.

It’s a lotta places that you can incorporate that, so you can use email as a testbed like that. Same thing with time of day. You can easily look in your email status and figure out when your emails are most open, when they’re interacted with inside your customer base. You use that knowledge to figure out what time of day you wanna buy ads on Facebook, what time of day you wanna buy ads on Google Search. If they’re using email at that time, chances are they’re also likely to be on Facebook and Google and Twitter and places like that at the same time. You can also go the opposite – so you can do some cool stuff with image testing in Facebook. So let’s say you’re going do a Facebook ad, do four different versions.

Same copy, but a different image. If you have a disparate portion at results, take the winning image and use that image in your email, because obviously that image is compelling, disproportionate to the other options. Same thing with calls to action with links. So let’s say you’re gonna have an email – you can have four different calls to action and say, “What are we actually asking people to do?” Phrase that differently. If you have a distinct winner, you use that call to action on a blog post, on a landing page, in a Facebook ad, etc. Lotsa things you can do there. But, we can do all of those things—but none of those things work unless you fundamentally love your subscribers.

You cannot treat them like cattle, you cannot treat them like baseball cards that you have collected, you cannot treat them like a disposable corndog, where you take, like, one bite and throw in the trash at 7-Eleven. Yes, absolutely email works: we have discussed that, we have proven it, there is research to back it up. But as I mentioned before, nobody says, “Man, if I could only get more irrelevant email, that would make my life so much better.” Healthy relationships, whether they’re digital relationships or real-world relationships, are built on the same things: they’re built on time, and they’re built on trust, and they’re built on good, positive communication.

And email, of course, exactly the same. Even if you’re already good at email, you’re probably not great at email – because very few people are, actually. Do not take these subscribers for granted, they are a true asset to your organization. You have to think about this long-term. People ask all the time, “Hey, how often should I send email?” Well, the answer’s always the same, Jamie – when you have something to say.

Jamie: Preach.

Jay: And this time of year, as we are recording this in November, is the death of email. Because you get into November/December and every business—especially e-commerce businesses, but really, all businesses have this same kinda pressure – bossman says, “Hey, we gotta put up some results here towards the end of the year, so let’s send some more emails than we typically do.” And, the thing about emails, it’s relatively easy to send an email in comparison to other forms of digital. You just kinda, you know, write some stuff down and press a button, and Emma does all the rest.

And that’s almost too easy because it’s like, well, let’s just send another one, and send another one, and send… I bought some underwear a few months ago, and, you know, like most men, I’m not going through underwear, like, really fast. You know, it’s not like I’ve got the same ones I had when I was a child, but, you know, it’s got a shelf life, right? So, I buy some underwear, big…like the underwear, it’s all good, not dissatisfied with the purchase. Signed up for their email newsletter. Thought, yeah, I sign-up for pretty much all email newsletters because what I do. I now get an email not monthly, not weekly – I get a daily email. A daily email asking me to buy more underwear. I’m like, “Bro, nobody…there is no circumstances by which I would need that much underwear.”

Jamie: Right.

Jay: And so, I unsubscribed, and they’re just churning their list, right?

Jamie: Right.

Jay: So, think about it this way – it’s romance, not conquest. The goal is not to squeeze every drop out of every subscriber instantaneously, the goal is to make sure you have that same subscriber five years from now. The same way the goal is not to have – well, in most cases—have one date, the goal is to develop a relationship. So, think about the ratio this way – think about 30% sales and 70% customer service. Seventy percent of the time you’re giving them value in the email, whether it’s information value or something else, or just entertainment, and then every once in a while you’re like, “Hey, would you like to buy something from us?” But asking me to buy email…or buy underwear every 24 hours – that’s not a good plan.

That is not gonna work. Because ultimately it’s about them, they decide whether to stay on your list or not, and it’s all about relevancy. Only send email when you know it has some value. Customize and segment your email wherever possible to make sure it’s more relevant. As we looked at earlier, if you sent The Escape Game email to people in Nashville, and it’s all about the Orlando locations, people like, “Well, this is stupid, I’m not in Orlando.” I unsubscribe, I don’t want this.

So use the power of customization and segmentation to your advantage to increase relevancy and to delight subscribers. In fact, 63% of customers think better of a brand that provides valuable, interesting, and relevant content. So even if you only sell underwear, if the content’s good, two-thirds of us give you credit for that, and three-quarters of customers are more likely to buy from a brand that actually personalizes content. The easiest way to personalize content, out of all things digital – yeah, it’s email.

Jamie: True. And that’s a great segue. So, you know, we talked about The Escape Game. Shifting gears here, you know, Jay talks about content relevancy, making a great impression – I’m also dying to know what the segment is called that thinks that someone needs a daily email selling them underwear.

Jay: Daily Underwear segment, of course.

Jamie: Right, exactly. It’s like, what…what’s the criteria there?

Jay: Well I did buy, like, seven pairs at once, and I think that was my mistake.

Jamie: They’re like, one a day.

Jay: I kinda loaded up. Yeah, I sorta, like, switched brands, essentially, is what happened, and I got rid of all my old underwear and kinda replaced them… I don’t know, it’s actually more like 12 pairs, actually. And replaced them with new underwear, and so then they’re like, “We have a live fish on the line here. This guy once bought 12 pairs”...

Jamie: He’s a fiend.

Jay: ...“of underwear at 14…in 14 minutes, man. I don’t know. Who knows where is the bottom of this well? We don’t know.”

Jamie: He’s fired up, man. Well, it was worth a shot, but, yeah, it…they went a little far. So what are the best places, though, when you talk about content relevancy and starting that relationship? And, you know, everything that Jay’s said up to this point has been just reinforcing, you know, this is…you don’t wanna go on one date with these subscribers, you truly do want to foster a long-term sort of… Like he said, you want them there five years from now, and one of the best places to do that, to increase long-term brand engagement, is the very first touch points. So that was sort of welcome note that this is sort of the place for that personalization, that relevancy, that…you know, that segmentation starts to happen, and they all converge.

So this example here that we are looking at is from a company called Thistle Farms – they’re a nonprofit, social enterprise business – and what that means is that they do some amazing work, they sell a retail product. You can go to Whole Foods, you can buy their products, you can go to their storefront, you can go online, of course, and buy their products, but all of the proceeds go back into the organization, which employs women who are survivors of, you know, human trafficking and other things like that. So, it’s this amazing brand, and instead of just a sell, sell, sell—you know, we want you to buy our products – they don’t start there.

So, they came to us, they wanted to sort of spice up their welcome note, and we expanded that into a series. So there’s no better way, when you’re capturing that data – and as Jay said, you don’t wanna ask for too much upfront, you just wanna ask, in this case, for an email address – a welcome series is a great way to sort of extend your reach with just that one data point. That one piece of information you have. So, very broadly, if you start from the left, the first email is just saying, “Hey, thanks for being here.” They did actually give a free shipping code away, so they were kind of giving something back.

Again, it’s value upfront, it’s not about selling anything. Email two, they totally shift gears – they’re not pushing products at all. What they’re saying is, “Here is why you should even care about what we’re doing. You should care about our brand because specifically, we…” You change this woman’s life, you know. Lori is writing you a letter and saying, “When you buy our products, you give me, you know, this experience in my world.” And that doesn’t have to be just a, you know, warm, fuzzy feeling. Again, this is where you can start to sprinkle in social proof from your customers. You know, repurposing that Facebook content that Jay mentioned earlier.

You can use, you know, this sort of…this engagement point in the life cycle with email to do that here. Email three in this series is where they are starting to profile this new subscriber. So they just have their email address, but based on their behavior—based on what they’re clicking, based on whether they wanna come to this workshop, or if they do – this is where they first sprinkle in, “Hey, maybe you should donate.” Based on their activity here, they’re starting to segment people, so this is where the underwater company might have learned that Jay was not super engaged at this point and maybe weren’t… If someone is clicking “send me more underwear” in the third email, by all means, do it.

And then by the fourth email in this series, this is where they’re just flat out asking for a relationship or to go to another step, so they’re saying, “Become a Thistle farmer.” So in their world, that’s a…you know, that’s a recurring donor, that’s a person that sort of supports this brand beyond just buying, you know, a candle or another product. So great place to start, but to Jay’s point earlier, you know, email is that testing ground. It is not, you know, something that you set and forget, especially not an automated workflow. You wanna continually check in on these. So they got to a certain point, they let this live for a few months, and they did realize that around email three, around email four, the engagement dipped.

They opened Thistle strong, but sort of the clicks were lagging, they weren’t really getting that data back that they wanted. So if you go to the next slide here… There we go. If you go to the next slide, based on that testing and based on their findings, email one, they completely revamped. It’s still, “Welcome. Hey, we’re glad you’re here,” but instead of that free offering, they are now just saying, “Hey, why don’t you pick the path that you wanna go on with our brand?” And this is such a great point to, you know, point out, the end of the day, that relevancy and making sure that people are getting the content that they want, is more important than subtly profiling them in the third email. While that, in theory, was a fun tactic, they wanted to just take a broader approach.

So, you know, testing allowed them to do that and letting this live, and now they’re also able to diversify their content and justify branching out instead of doing, you know, shot in the dark, we think this is the content they want. And again, to Jay’s point, trying to just sell, sell, sell product, they have a daily meditation email, which is fantastic. That is all value, that is not selling anything other than that relationship. They also have offers, but they also just have more information about the organization as a whole. There’s three other newsletters that do that and really drive that home.

So again, all of this came from testing, and the big point here, just like with Escape Game – getting that relevant content out – they change to this first touch point, which, as I mentioned, increases long-term brand engagement. And the result wasn’t just that this series got better engagement, their actual open rates went up by 30% for…

Jay: Wow.

Jamie: ...all of these mailings. That’s been live and happening now for a couple of months. And again, they are going to watch this, and if numbers start to dip, if this starts to stagnate, you know, they work really closely with us in our…

Jay: Mix it up.

Jamie: ...crazy, proactive… Yeah, about reaching out and saying, “All right, this is getting stale. What’s up?” So, by paying attention, by being vigilant and, again, just reinforcing that that relevant content is great, it’s gonna have…it’s gonna pay off in dividends, you know, across the board, not just, you know, with one email, so…

Jay: You might think that all of those kinda email programs, and the testing, and the integration with other digital tactics is a ton of work. And here you see young, sleepy – or maybe stoned – Mick Jagger, I’m not totally certain what happened on this photo.

Jamie: Probably all of the above.

Jay: Probably all of the above. And yeah, look, you know, I didn’t say this was going to be easy, I just said it was going to work. Two-thirds of all email marketers say that they don’t have the time or the resources to do their best work. Isn’t that sad? Sorta tragic. And only 12% of email marketers – 12 – say that they’re meeting both internal and customer expectations. That doesn’t make me happy at all. Email is absolutely critical, yet this idea of a satisfied and a successful email marketer barely exists. There’s hardly anybody who thinks they’re successful and is also satisfied with their time and how it’s going. That is a problem, so we gotta fix that, folks.

You have to make sure that the people in your company understand how important email really is. That they understand that email is the glue, that email is the Mick Jagger of your entire digital program. Start to integrate digital with some of the other…or start to integrate email, I should say, with some of the other digital tactics so that it’s interwoven more inside the organization, and then start to use email to test and optimize some of the other parts of digital as well, so that it becomes even more important. Don’t just stand up for the status quo, where your boss’s boss’s boss is like, “Oh, email. We’ve been doing that for 15 years. Who cares?”

It’s really, really important, and so one of our jobs as email professionals – even if you’re not an email professional, per se, but you’re just doing email in your organization, in addition to a buncha other things – one of the things you’ve gotta take on is making sure that people in your company know just how important email really is. Because email is the heartbeat of all digital relationships. And we’ve got a soundtrack you,, the Romancing the Customer playlist on Spotify. I want you to give that a listen sometime today.

Jamie: All right, yeah, we’re definitely gonna…to rock out to that. I wish I could just cue it right now, but I don’t have a device. We could have some gentle music. As we move into Q&A, as I mentioned, you guys were amazing, a lot of you had great questions right at registration. So Jay, are you ready? I’m going to…just gonna hop right in.

Jay: Yeah, I guess I’m ready. Sure, I’ll be ready.

Jamie: All right, I’ll hop in if you’re not. No. So Seth Hansen [SP] wants to know, what’s…

Jay: Not Seth Hansen, no questions from Seth Hansen.

Jamie: Okay, sorry, okay…

Jay: [inaudible 00:38:07]

Jamie: ...we’ll move in to Jody. No. Seth Hansen, dear Seth Hansen wants to know, “What’s the key with email digital marketing in general when it comes to contacts who might take up to two years to make a purchase? We have a more premium priced product and sell to consumers and businesses in military markets.” That is a fantastic question, because a lot of times people will, you know, come to these webinars, will…you know, you had great wisdom, and they’ll say, “Hey, I had this really specific use case, this is not a one-and-done, I’m not going to be able to see the returns.” What’s your advice for sort of nurturing over that kinda life cycle?

Jay: Yeah, I…you’re certainly going to wanna keep them top of mind at some level, but two years is a long sales cycle, so I liked Thistle Farms. So you sorta have a three to one ratio, right? So you’ve got three emails that are informational, that are all about value, that are telling you things that you might find interesting, and every once in a while you slip in a, “Hey, you ready now? Can I give you some additional product information?” So you give them sorta three doses of email information that you know they are going to find valuable, and then the fourth dose is some additional product information that hopefully drives’em a little deeper into the sales funnel.

So, that kind of ratio – it might be five to one, it might be six to two—you can test it and just figure out what make sense for you, and also start to test the cadence. So, is that a monthly email over a longer sales cycle? Is it every two weeks? Something else to test? But the longer the sales cycle, the more content rich and useful the email needs to be, because just like my underwear example, you’re not gonna keep me on the hook for two years with a constant stream of product information when it’s gonna take me that long to make a decision.

Jamie: Absolutely. So, I think that’s perfect to move…moving on to Jody, we’ll keep… We got a lotta questions, you guys are curious. So Jody wants to know, “How do you get more subscribers to open your email? I send around 5,000, and I have maybe 300 to 400 that open the email. I’m not noticing a great click-through and purchasing of tickets through my emails. Should I send emails more often? I do two a month, unless I have lots of events or holiday specials, then four a month. Shorter newsletters? More often?” What’s sorta the advice for Jody? I wanna reiterate the thing that you said, which I love is, “If you don’t know why you’re sending an email, if you don’t have something to say, should you be sending that email?”

Jay: Yeah. I mean, you know, if there is any question whether your audience is going to find your email valuable, you already know the answer. If you’re unsure, the answer is “no.” Right?

Jamie: Sure.

Jay: It just is. So if you’re having a problem with open rate, the answer is not to send more emails. I can tell you for a fact, that is not the answer. Because what you’re gonna have is even less open rate because people will be like, “I don’t wanna receive this email that I didn’t find relevant. I don’t wanna get more,” so you’re going to have higher unsubscribes. So, what you wanna do is a couple things. First, rule out some of the more blocking and tackling things, so I would do “from” line test to see what does it say? Who is this email coming from? Is it coming from you? Is it coming from the organization? Is it coming from a customer? I would do a series of subject line tests.

Try using the customer’s name in the subject line, try and do subject lines that are longer, shorter, funnier, angrier. I would also do a time of day test and a day of week test. So I would do those four tests first, which is the four tests that I recommend for pretty much everybody: “from” line, subject line, time of day, day of week. See if you can unlock some additional open rates using those. If none of those work, then you’ve gotta say, “Okay, what are we sending? What is the fundamental thing that we’re sending, and how do we reconfigure that?”

Jamie: I would totally agree with all of that. I mean, I think until you start doing those sorta baseline tests, and exactly like Jay just said, those are sort of the…if you don’t know where to start, that’s where you start. That data is then going to inform sort of where you need to pivot from there, but by and large, I would say too on the subject line front, we have published or are publishing at, we have lots of great subject line content there, it’s very popular, and…with all of our subscribers. So head to, search for “subject lines,” and we’ve got lotsa tips and tricks in there too.

Jay: One point on that – make sure you only test one thing at a time.

Jamie: Yes. Very, very true.

Jay: Because otherwise, you do not know what actually made a difference.

Jamie: So true, thank you. That was a good reminder. So here’s a live question from Doug, and this is one…we get this for every single webinar, so I’m curious how you would answer it. I have some thoughts.

Jay: Yes, we are recording it. Was that the question?

Jamie: Yes, we’re recording it…

Jay: Okay, that was the question.

Jamie: ...yes, we will send you an email with the recording. The question from Doug is, “Does all of this apply to B2B like it does B2C?” I think this is the MVP question we get every single time. Doesn’t mean you’re not original, Doug. It means that I think what we found – and you, Jay, you can kinda echo this – by and large, a lotta times people think of their B2B email audience and their B2C audience. Yes, there is some different tactics, there can be, like the first question, some different time frames and sales cycles, but by and large, a lot of the tactics that Jay described today and that we discuss often, those are just human nature.

They are, I’m paying attention to… Yeah, it’s a crowded inbox, I’m getting hundreds of emails. If you do a compelling subject line, whether I’m selling consulting services or candles, you know, I…I’m going to react to those things similarly. Is this something comes up often in your findings, Jay?

Jay: Yeah, absolutely. And I couldn’t agree more, it is almost the exact same playbook. The only things that might change is, I talked about using email testing results to influence Facebook ads, or that that might be influencing LinkedIn ads, or something along those lines. So, there is some changes on the margins at the very granular level, but the idea of only sending things that are relevant, the idea of only sending when you have something to say, the idea of not taking your subscribers for granted, and treating an email relationship over the long term, as opposed to overnight, actually is more important for B2B because you typically have a longer sales cycle.

Like, I’m gonna decide on my underwear purchase faster than I’m gonna decide on any B2B purchase of any size, shape, or description. And so, your ability to nurture subscribers via email and B2B is actually more important than your ability to nurture B2C consumers. So you have to think longer term in B2B and have email that really delivers value.

Jamie: Absolutely. And on the tails of that, and this is perfect because our next question is from Elisa [SP] – and I can kinda hop in a little bit here, but also, Jay, would love your thoughts too. You know, to that end, when we talk about it’s…I don’t stop being Jamie, the consumer, the human being – I hope not – when I come to work versus when I’m just opening my inbox to see if I’ve got some coupons, basically for clothes that I might buy on the weekend or something like that. So, Elisa’s question is to have…

Jay: You want some men’s underwear, I got a great place for ya’.

Jamie: Man, forward that along to me, I’ll give you my personal Gmail here in a second. So Elisa wants to know, “Do you have any email design tips for email marketers who do not have a lot of HTML, CSS experience?” And I think this is a great question because, you know, number one, platform-wise, you know, finding ESP – not sure what you’re using – an ESP that, you know, has a great WYSIWYG editor. So right out of the gate, you know, you don’t need to be a great email designer to design great emails, we also design emails here at Emma. You know, if you reach out to us, we can figure that out for you and make sure that you’re in…your needs are met.

But, from an email design standpoint, I would definitely say too that, you know, gone are the days when email design was just your header and your footer, or having your logo in it, or having different information and then everything else is a buncha junk in the middle, you know. The design tips that actually get…you know, see conversions and see those click-through rates are really tactics that work… Again, whether you’re selling tractors or consulting services or what it may be, you know, humans react to images, you know, so having great, bold images above the fold, having really clear headlines.

People are skimming and scanning, so just making sure that the email is parsable, that it’s got bulleted lists and it…that it’s really easy for me to tell what you want me to do, and most importantly, making sure that it’s…that it looks good on a mobile device. And one, you know, surefire way to do that is making sure that your calls to action are, you know, perhaps in the form of a button versus a text link, you know, and we tell people…and we pulled ourselves to it.

Send a test to yourself. If it’s hard for you to navigate that email or understand what’s going on on a mobile device, over half of your audience is probably seeing that email there at some point, and those are…it’s more functional design tactics that you don’t have to be an expert, you should be able to do that in any environment. So, do you have any additional thoughts there?

Jay: I would say don’t be afraid to try big things. You know, don’t be afraid or to have really, really bold graphics that you would never maybe think would work. And don’t be afraid to go the opposite – don’t be afraid to take all the graphics out and make a text-only letter approach, and see how that works. So just the same, whether you would test the subject lines – don’t be afraid to test designs as well. And as Jamie said, if you have the right ESP, it shouldn’t be a tremendous burden to actually do the creative.

Jamie: Absolutely. So we have another…we have a great question from Pamela that says, “How do you create excitement to buy without always offering discounts?” And you kinda touched on this, but do you care to elaborate?

Jay: Well, you can create excitement to buy without price by showing different uses of the product, by showcasing current customers, by looking at different options of the product – different color, sizes, shapes, things that it can be used for. You can create excitement for the product by answering questions about the product, whether they’re actual questions from customers in FAQ format or from other folks. So, there is lotsa things that you can do to get people fired up that don’t require you to give them cash off. Now, sometimes you need to do that, sometimes price promotion is the right strategy, but oftentimes it’s not.

It’s a road to ruin, usually, because we’re too fast to go there. We’re like, “Oh, we’ll just make it cheaper,” but then you train your customers to expect it to be that price and you can never kinda walk it back. So there is lotsa things that you can do. I would tend to focus in my world, especially kinda how things are going right now, by looking at customer stories. Like, here’s the product, here’s a great customer, here’s how Jamie uses it, here’s how Jay wears his underwear. Isn’t that cool? And that’s a way to kinda get people to see themselves with the product.

Jamie: Good answer. All right, moving right along here, so Heather wants to know… Heather’s got a two-parter, so…

Jay: Taking liberties. Okay.

Jamie: Yeah, brace yourself. Heather wants to know, “What’s the best way to introduce your emails to a new customer? Welcome email, then just to add…” Oh wait, sorry. “A welcome email, then just add that to existing emails? Or do I create a series of emails that operate on a rolling basis?” We showed you an example of that. So the second part is, “Do you keep your master email list in a database outside of a specific email service, or…” You know, so she’s kinda got a getting started with someone who…let’s say it sounds like what she’s hinting at is perhaps someone who has not opted in. Like, what’s the best way to sort of get that content, start that relationship…

Jay: Yeah, I mean, I think anybody…

Jamie: ...introduce them?

Jay: ...who’s new to your list should have a welcome sequence like we looked at with Thistle Farms, that kinda says, “Hey, here’s our deal, here’s what you’re gonna get from us, here’s some more information about us.” And after you kinda go through that sequence, which is typically three to five emails – sometimes less, sometimes more – then they start getting into the regular cadence that everybody gets.

In terms of keeping a parallel database, I’ve never thought about that before. Some companies need to do that for security reasons, they just feel it’s necessary to have a parallel database that is not maintained solely by their email service provider. I’ve never felt that was necessary, actually, and I always feel like you got a really hard time keeping those databases synced.

Jamie: Yeah.

Jay: You might have the emails themselves synced but you’re not gonna have open rate, you’re not gonna have, you know, performance, you’re not gonna have what links they click—things along those lines. And so, unless you’re gonna say, “Hey, let’s take Emma and sync it up with Salesforce or some kind of other CRM that is built to do that—if you’re just gonna saying, “Hey, I wanna have my own list in Excel,” or something – I would say that’s insane. If you’re gonna use your email service provider as a piece of a larger digital database program, yeah, I can get behind that idea.

Jamie: I would definitely say that. I mean, I think you wanna be extra certain that people who opt out, you know, they’re raising…

Jay: Get opted out.

Jamie: Yeah, that they get opted out. You know, you wanna be really careful with that stuff because that can harm your reputation when you mean to do no harm. So, great answer there. All right, keeping it rollin’ because we have…we’ve got more questions than we probably do time, so we’re gonna…we’re going to try to get to’em all. So Tanya wants to know, “I’ve been given a goal to send daily campaigns” – uh-oh, maybe she works at the underwear company – “for the month of November. How will I be able to keep revenue up but lose less subscribers?” Yeah, that’s a challenge.

Jay: Do you want the actual answer?

Jamie: Yeah.

Jay: You won’t, you won’t.

Jamie: Right.

Jay: You know, you may be able to hit your revenue goals, but you’re gonna lose subscribers.

Jamie: Yeah.

Jay: Period. And so the question is, is that worth it?

Jamie: Yes.

Jay: And the way you answer that is, what is it cost you to get a new subscriber? What’s the replacement cost for a lost subscriber, and what is the actual lifetime value of a purchase that you generate in the fourth quarter? So this is all knowable, right? It’s just math.

Jamie: Yeah.

Jay: But yeah, the answer is, you’re going to lose subscribers when you hit the list that frequently, you’re also going to make some money. Both of those things are going to happen, and there is no way around it.

Jamie: Right. And I would say too, you know, some…a tactic that I know our services team, you know, sort of implements, and it’s very popular during the holiday season, is this notion of a pause button. So, at the beginning of the holiday season, you could send a campaign out, and it sounds like… I mean, we’re in the thick of November, Tanya probably has someone who’s telling her to do this, and hopefully this will be some ammo… Jay said it. He’s a best-selling author, come on. I’m not, but you can put up…you can do…send a sort of a campaign that says, “Hey, it’s the holidays, we’re about to send you daily emails. If you don’t want to get these daily emails, hit this pause button. You’re not opted out, we’re going to… You know, it’s just, see ya’ later. We’ll let you know if something…

Jay: And back to you the day after Christmas.

Jamie: Yeah.

Jay: [inaudible 00:53:02], yeah.

Jamie: Exactly, day after Christmas, a day after New Year’s, whatever.

Jay: If you’re good on underwear, we’ll let you know.

Jamie: Yeah, exactly. You never know what’s under that tree, what’s in that stocking.

Jay: Yeah, that’s a really good idea. Pause button’s a terrific solution for fourth quarter.

Jamie: Exactly, and then that way you don’t lose them, but…

Jay: Yeah, you don’t lose’em, yeah. But you still have’em but you just don’t have it in that campaign. I like it.

Jamie: And what we found too is, even if people don’t do it, if they don’t click that button and sorta go into that segment, they still appreciate it. It’s almost like they’re like, “Oh yeah, saw that thing, I get it, I… Shame on me, I didn’t click it.” But I felt like it just…asking questions, asking what people want is a great way to build that relationship and that trust. So, very good question. Jennifer. This is broad, so pick one, “But what’s the best way to increase the click rate?” I feel like all of these things will we’ve said, but any specifics that you found?

Jay: Well, you have to understand that open rate is a factor of who sends it, what the subject line is when you get it. Click rate is that, a little, but more what’s in the actual email itself. So to increase click rate you would think about design testing, you would think about, as Jamie talked about, call to action testing, right? Is it a text link? Is it a button? How do you format and phrase that call to action? What is the actual wording of the call to action? And then of course, the fundamental content of the email.

Like, is it worth clicking? Like, what is the payoff for the recipient of the email? Does their life get better if they click this button? If your life gets better but theirs doesn’t, well, there’s your answer. If you aren’t giving them something of real value—something that is relevant, and they’re still not clicking – then you probably have a design or copywriting problem. If it’s not that relevant, well then you clearly have a relevancy problem.

Jamie: Yeah. Fun fact. MacKenzie, who is my faithful…I almost called you a steed, you’re not a horse, but my faithful friend, who’s sitting in the room with me, going through these questions with me, she and I are actually doing this right before we came to this webinar. We are testing strictly the headline and the button CTA language, but we are changing nothing about the design. If that is not effective, then we are going to probably keep the winning headline and then test the design, and so on. So, it can take a few times to get it right, and everyone is or should be trying this stuff out each time if your clicks are low, so…

Jay: ABT, always be testing.

Jamie: I love it. All right, so let’s see… Okay, I think we might have time for one last question.

Jay: All right.

Jamie: Oh, and this is… Man, how perfect is this? So we talked about Mick Jagger a lot. This woman’s name is Angie, so I don’t know if we put that on the playlist, we might wanna sing it if we want… I’m not going to sing in.

Jay: I’m not [inaudible 00:55:51], either.

Jamie: You know it, just Google it, it’s a song. So Angie wants to know, “I’m in an industry that has an off-season – we’re a waterpark, so not now. Is it still a good idea to keep in touch weekly with our season pass holders, or scale back until the season is about to begin again?” What are your thoughts there?

Jay: I would look at it, I think you have two options. If your content approach is keep them up-to-date on all things waterpark, I would say don’t send it weekly, because it’s so far away from being relevant from a calendar perspective. Like, I don’t need to know about that, I’m not going to start thinking waterpark till after spring break, and so I would skinny that back to monthly or something along those lines. If, however, you can commit to sending an email that has nothing to do with the waterpark, which is, “Hey, you know, we’re the place for family fun in the summer, but here’s some ways to have family fun in the winter: here’s how to make a snowman, here’s awesome sledding areas.”

And every single week you recommend something awesome to do with your family in the winter, that’s an email I’ll open. But if it’s, “Hey, we’re cleaning the park because we’re getting ready for next summer” – fail. Out.

Jamie: Right.

Jay: Unsubscribe.

Jamie: And I think that, you know, circles back to what Doug asked earlier, you know, it’s…we’re seeing a lot more content marketing happening in that sorta B2C…

Jay: In email.

Jamie: Yeah, in email, and in B2C, you know. There is a skincare brand that I follow that has now a branded newsletter, and it’s strictly…like, they get into, like, politics, they’re… You know, it’s not even just about health and wellness, it’s about sort of, like, whole life wellness. And then they also happen to sell sort of upscale beauty products, and it’s so great, and I look at every email.

Jay: I mean, it’s okay to send email…

Jamie: You know?

Jay: ...that’s not about your products…

Jamie: Right.

Jay: ...because the reality is, your products are only that interesting, and they’re only circumstantially interesting. You don’t need underwear every day, right? You know, and if that…if the underwear company sent me email all the time about other stuff – about other men’s clothing, about men’s fashion, about cars, about tequila, about barbecue, about other things that I like – I’d be like, “Great, love these guys.” But it…every day it was like, “Buy the product, buy the product, buy the product.” I’m like, “No, I already bought the product.”

Jamie: Absolutely.

Jay: So you can have…you have permission to send things that aren’t features and benefits – you just have to have the courage to do that.

Jamie: Great, great, parting words, Jay. We are at the end of our time together and I am bummed about it because this is always so informative, I took away a lot of things. I hope someone was taking notes, I was busy, but…

Jay: Well we recorded it, obviously, [inaudible 00:58:27]...

Jamie: Oh yeah, that’s right.

Jay: You’re going to get…

Jamie: Yeah, you’re going to get that.

Jay: email afterwards. Yeah, with…

Jamie: You are.

Jay: ...recording, Jamie.

Jamie: You are going to get it, you’re going to get an email from us in a few days. You can also go, again, to, download that playlist, download the e-book, let’s get together, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, yeah, that’s a… Excuse me. I’m gonna cough because I’m done talking, but thank you so much, Jay.

Jay: Thanks, everybody, appreciate it. See you next time.

Jamie: All right. Bye, guys.

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