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The Unwebinar

A live Q&A with Scott Stratten and Alison Kramer




Join best-selling authors and acclaimed UnPodcast hosts Scott Stratten and Alison Kramer as they help us tackle the marketing topics that matter most to you. You'll have a blast and walk away with easy-to-digest, real-life examples and answers to all of your burning business questions.

Jamie: Hello everyone, thank you so much for joining us today. I am your host and moderator, Jamie Bradley. I’m so happy that you’re here. I’m a content marketing strategist here at Emma and I know we have a ton of customers here on the line, but for those of you that found us via our esteemed guest today, Emma is a service that gives marketers the tools and expertise to build better email marketing programs fast. You know, we don’t just provide the technology to make, send, automate and track emails, we also provide strategic services so that you’re never left guessing how to do your best email ever. And one way we do that is by producing content like today’s presentation for everybody. So thank you again for being here regardless of what tools you use, Emma or not, because a good email just makes us really happy.

So for today, as you can see on your screen, we are super excited to have our guest, Scott Stratten and Alison Kramer. They are our Canadian buddies up north and there, they produce, write and present, honestly, some of the best marketing content and business content that’s out there today, so very excited to have them. And we truly, truly believe that. So thank you guys. They are authors of such books as the ‘‘UnMarketing” book, “QR Codes Kill Kittens,’’ a personal favorite, and their latest book, ‘‘UnSelling: The New Customer Experience.’’ They’re all fantastic and you can purchase them at And they also are co-hosts of the wildly popular “UnPodcast, the Business Podcast for the Fed Up,” of which we are very proud sponsors. And in their own words, they strive to help you filter out to the bad advice, misinformation and misuse of business tools that are out there.

So we’re gonna touch on that today, obviously. And that’s what we’re here to do. So we’ve already gotten tons of great questions via our incredibly long registration form. Apologies, guys. Thank you for enduring it. But also know that you guys can type your questions for Scott and Alison as they come in today, right there in your little question box in the GoToWebinar module and also on Twitter. You can tweet @emmaemail or… probably @email, we’ll be monitoring that one using the #theunwebinar. And again, we also are gonna be sending out a recording of this and you have a special treat. It’s actually gonna be video and audio. Today’s just audio. So get ready for that. We’ll send that out later this week. So be on the lookout. But without further ado, I’m gonna stop talking and let these guys take it. Take it away.

Scott: Well, hello. Hello.

Alison: Hello everyone.

Scott: Thank you for having us on this UnWebinar unscripted, unscheduled, and unrelenting. Can I put any more Un words?

Jamie: I don’t know if that’s possible.

Alison: I don’t think you can.

Scott: So give us some questions. Let’s fire away.

Jamie: Yeah, let’s hop right in here. That’s what people wanna hear. So obviously we are an email marketing company. We just, I’ve established that as we’ve got a ton of questions from our audience and yours about email marketing. So I figured we’d kind of start there. And really the biggest themes I guess that we saw were all about list growth and also segmentation. And those are things that we hear a lot here. So we’re gonna jump right in. And first we’re gonna start with Andrew, who asks, “What is the best way to let people know about and get signups for the mailing list that’s on our website?”

Scott: Well, there’s that big challenge where a lot of people have been going away from email signups, especially in the past three or four years where you get to this thing where it says, you know, let’s get signed up to Facebook. Let’s get signed up to twitter. Let’s get all these different things. And reality is that to us, email is still king. You’re talking about people who live on social media and digital, that the funnel is still all directions lead to an email signup. We call it this reactive-based funnel marketing where you have, if I send an email, you have to decide delete it or apply to it or, you know, mark it as spam or, as we hope you don’t do with ours. But the biggest thing is if I send out a tweet or a Facebook post, it’s going to reach a very small percentage. We call it fractional reactions. So it wasn’t the question, but it sets the tone, the base for email itself that it’s still king for us.

Alison: The first step is probably to value it, right? I think it’s important and put some focus on email, not just be thinking about Facebook and social media likes.

Scott: And I think that if you do build that platform on the social platforms that you still wanna direct them towards it. And the biggest mistake I see on websites as pertaining to the question, is that they’re not really giving an enticing reason to sign up for the email newsletter. Now, this isn’t new. I’ve been doing audits and web audits for I can’t even…since the internet was invented, since the late ‘90s where spinning GIF globes were all the rage. And I still remember my first website on Angelfire and Geocities that the point is, it was always “Sign up for our free newsletter.” And like the free parts, the enticing part, I just don’t…nobody has stumbled upon a newsletter, signed up and been, you know, retroactively charged for it. So free wasn’t the reason I’d sign up. Why? Why am I gonna sign up? First, frequency and then a taste of the content is really important. Is this a daily newsletter? Is this a weekly newsletter? Is this monthly? Or under the ‘‘UnMarketing’’ one, is it yearly? I guess that we said how often we can sometimes send stuff out.

Alison: We talk a lot about expectations too. Like making sure when people sign up, but they know how often they’re gonna be sent your email, what you guys are going to be talking about. You may even have different kinds of email newsletters for different things you wanna talk about. So it’s really important, I think, to set the expectation so people aren’t bombarded with things they didn’t wanna get.

Scott:  And one of the biggest issues too, if I can do it as transparent as I possibly can, one of the ways I hurt our list, you know, almost two years ago when we started the UnPodcast was people were used to getting a newsletter from us once, maybe a quarter, you know, like for a year.

Alison: [inaudible 00:06:01] quarterly newsletter.

Scott: Yeah, we’d only email when had a blog post going up. And once the podcasts originally came out, I was emailing weekly with every update of the show, and people didn’t sign up for that. And no matter how much you loved this stuff, it was like, “Whoa, slow down.” It was like seeing your weird uncle at only, like, once a year and then he’s at your house every weekend, you’re like, “Dude, I dig ya at a distance very infrequently.’’ It was almost like…I don’t want to use the word, it’s a little [inaudible 00:06:29], but it’s a betrayal of the trust of the list that if people would sign up for a weekly update about the UnPodcast, sure. But it wasn’t… Yeah, I was the uncle.

Alison: He was the uncle. Yeah.

Jamie: Oh Gosh. Well, that’s perfect. I was gonna say to you…I mean obviously we talk, I agree with everything you just said. Thank you for saying that, but you know, it’s like once you get all the people there then what are you gonna do with them? So we also had a ton of other questions about segmentation and sort of how you do what you guys were just saying where, you know, if you’re gonna…maybe you are gonna send us some of them weekly because that’s what they want. They want the uncle there, maybe other people don’t. So can you kind of talk a little bit about how you guys segment and what you would recommend that other people do?

Scott: Yeah. Well, for us, it’s almost like you sign up for ‘‘UnMarketing,’’ you sign up for our world. And we currently do a poor job of it where, you know, if we did it smart and professionally, which is not our shtick, but if we did it, it would be, you know, you’d have the check that you have signing up for UnPodcast updates or the show updates and you’d sign up for this. And one of our buddies who does it really well now is Jay Baer behind, and he has a real really drilled down to, you know, three or four or five levels of “What exactly do you wanna hear about?” because they put out so much content, they’re really a content company as opposed to what Jay used to be, which was his opinion on stuff. And it really allows to only get what you want.

And that’s where that segmentation really helps is…that’s the problem with things like social media. You know, segmentation. When it comes to a tweet, the word doesn’t exist. You simply are going to blast it to everybody. And where you share something that’s happening locally like, say, in Toronto here is not applicable to somebody in Atlanta. And the biggest fear you should have with your newsletter is apathy and irrelevance, that people start saying…when they ask, “Why am I subscribed to this?” you know, we have a problem. And that’s where you get that segmentation side of things. You get that targeting side of things to say, let’s make sure we can make it applicable every single time, because you don’t wanna end up in that purgatory of newsletters, which is that “I’m just too lazy to unsubscribe but I’m not interested in reading it.”

Jamie: Absolutely. Well, and on the flip side of that, Joy was asking, “You know, we produce events and new markets. I don’t wanna buy email lists, but I can’t figure out how to build a list in time.” And this is something that we talk about often, obviously. Emma is a permission based service. So, you know, how do you sort of navigate that conversation with people or, like, what are your thoughts there about trying to get lists to email before you go out into the world?

Scott: Good, cheap, fast, pick two. That’s not ours, that’s been around forever in business and it’s so true with building a list. The problem is her question there at the end was quickly, and the problem is the quickly part, right? You can build a great list, a targeted list, a local list for events. The problem is you don’t wanna buy a list, but you wanna do it quickly. Well, you’re not covering two of those three facets of that. There’s really no such thing as the, you know, quickly cheap and fast. You’ve got to be able to…list building takes time. It does. And whether that means you’re building relationships with people who actually currently own a list and you wanna leverage that…I don’t mean by buying leads or lists, I mean like them promoting you on their list. That all takes time. If you’re in a rush and you’re starting from zero, that’s not necessarily the best case to start with email marketing. I think email marketing is about building that trust in front of that marketplace and a bit building over time, so what you can do is at current events, build that list. You can use different tools to have people onsite sign up. But you know what kills great marketing and great community-based things is that sprint, that rush to do something quickly.

Alison: I think too that’s great advice in saying that, you know, connect with other people in that marketplace who maybe aren’t doing the same thing that you’re doing and get to know them and they may have a list of people, and all of a sudden you’re providing them with great content to share maybe on their newsletter, which is then gonna bring people over to you. I think the secret of it is still to do really great work and create this great content and then connect with people who will be able to share that information on your behalf is probably the best, maybe the fastest and the best way to do it.

Jamie: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and that kind of helps us transition. Obviously, I think, because you guys are kings and queens of social media, you’re so great, you have such a great rapport with your audience. We’ve got a ton of questions about social. I mean, I think, obviously here at Emma, we talk about putting email at the center of your efforts and it sounds like some of the things you guys just said sorta echo that sentiment. But as far as navigating social and email together, you know, and sort of making social a really viable part of the overall marketing mix, the two biggest themes that I kind of was able to pluck out are really just people wanting to know what’s hot right now. And if that’s even, you know, kind of a relevant avenue to go down. Everyone wants to…

Scott: If you could see the look on my face right now…

Alison: You would understand.

Jamie:  Right? Everyone wants the new hot thing. So what are your thoughts there on social and how it kind of plays with email, and is it worth pursuing the new hotness, really?

Scott: Well, why don’t we go talk about that on Google Plus or Ello? Let’s go on Ello and talk about that.

Alison: We talked a lot, especially on marketing, in the first book…one of the books you mentioned about platforming and that it takes time and that you can’t be, like, so you know, rushing to the next thing. You have to build something and you have to build something often. It takes a lot of energy, especially if you’re an entrepreneur, you’re starting out, you only have so much time and you can’t possibly be jumping to the next cool thing. You have to build a platform first, and then once you have a voice somewhere and it’s the right place to be, then you can look at, you know, stretching that out into another place. Like, even with starting the podcast wasn’t the first thing that ‘‘UnMarketing” did. And if it was the first thing, it would have been challenging to have an audience. And so, you know, building one thing at a time and having some focus and learning to get to know the people on the platform, that just takes time, and what’s cool and hip can pass very quickly and leave you behind.

Scott: I still have a pair of Zubaz somewhere. I could have sworn it was…

Alison: He does, he’s wearing them right now, if you watch the video, you can see them.

Scott: Exactly. So that’s the thing about webinars, you can be pantless or wearing Zubaz, nobody knows. But one of the things…you don’t wanna be the Jack Russell Terrier brand in social, which is you just jump in. Like, everybody likes the idea maybe of a Jack Russell Terrier. But once you own it, it’s like, we’ll work out.

Alison: Or you’re talking about the same thing everywhere, and you’re just irritating.

Scott: Yeah. And so what happens is we start showing our customers and our market that we’re here, we’re dedicated to our Facebook group. And then we jump over to somewhere else and saying, ‘‘Oh, we’re gonna be focusing there.’’ And there’s no time to create that foundation on that platform. If you have enough resources and people to have a presence everywhere, then, you know, God bless you. But so many places don’t, and no marketer or social media person right now is sitting around saying, ‘‘You know what, I have an obscene amount of time. I have so much time to be able to… Where else should we go?” And the problem is what it breeds is what Alison was saying, or is this cross platforming that, yeah, will be everywhere, but it’s gonna be the exact same content just automatically spread throughout.

And that’s, you know, we call that mannequin networking. You know, you’re on the platform, you’re at the networking event, but you’re not actually there. You’re sending a mannequin with your logo on it. It kind of spews whatever latest automated posts you have. I think the real key in a social media platform is to be social. Been saying it since 2009 and different places and it’s never changed. Great for our business, but just terrible that we have to keep saying that, that social is a place to have that connection. You can’t be at nine networking events at once, nor can you be on nine social media platforms at once.

Alison: And I think each one, once you get to know it, you realize that each one is a tool and each one is an individual tool with its own set of rules, and they’re better for different kinds of things. And if you’re just jumping around, you never actually get to know the community that uses that or whether your service or your product is best displayed in that particular way. And so you can’t just jump from one to the other without spending time getting to know and giving to the community first. Like that’s one of the things we talk about a lot is that you can’t just show up at a new social media site and expect to take. You have to give to the ecosystem, you have to help it grow. And if you’re constantly jumping around, it’s very hard to give to the ecosystem.

Jamie: Yeah. That’s amazing advice. And actually that’s a good transition. So Joshua and…

Alison: I specialize in transition.

Jamie:  I specialize in them. Joshua who is…he owns the restaurant, actually said if you had to focus on one social platform, which should it be? And yeah, I’m very curious what you guys would say about that. Like where should Joshua start if he’s gonna start focusing for his restaurant?

Scott: The issue is it’s almost like how long is a piece of string? That’s really what the question is, coming to us, because it all depends how much time do you have, what resources do you have and what is your reach of your marketplace? So if it’s a restaurant and it’s local and it’s focusing just straight on local crowd within a certain 20-mile radius, then again, this still is how long is a piece of string? How much time do you go? What is your strength? Is it gonna be…I could convince a world that. But Periscope could be the best platform if you wanna get behind the scenes, look at the kitchen and you’re really good on camera, really good at feeding off live stuff. Or are you kind of pithy but really short attention span…and tweets, but the problem is, first of all, how much time do you have going to these places? If your answer is next to none…and I know that Joshua runs a restaurant. He’s got next to no time. One of the things that I can I really wanna advise people is that sometimes, you don’t necessarily have to be on social yourself and creating this really brand presence. It’s almost listening more.

So if I’m running a restaurant, I’m more concerned about reading about Yelp reviews and TripAdvisor reviews and reviews on my Google, actual part of my page to say, let me listen there because feedback is potentially already happening. I would have a search thing set up and a report sent to me. But if I’m mentioned on Twitter, I would maybe listen to it. Sure. But it’s so much responsive based in the restaurant industry that Yelp and TripAdvisor will drive your business more than let’s say a tweet that if somebody…I’d rather catch a problem in real time on Yelp, or post, you know, dining there, but then react to it and be able to fix it and do it well, than let’s say come up with an Instagram strategy momentarily. If you’re just starting out, it takes a long time to build a platform on any of those places, but people are already talking. I don’t want to talk to a restaurant owner and talk to me about what’s my Facebook page strategy when he has 15 two-star reviews on Yelp that haven’t been addressed.

Alison: That’s one of the things we talked about a lot in ‘‘UnSelling’’ is that, you know, as a business owner, especially I would say in a restaurant business, your job is creating great experiences and things that can be taken and shared and that other people will do that for you. Other people will talk about your restaurant if it’s great. Other people will share pictures of their dessert if it’s amazing, and they’ll take it out and spread it to their platforms that they have. So that’s kind of the first work of, I guess, being successful on social media is creating these stories. And I think I would focus on that before I would focus about pushing those stories out for yourself, because often that’s not as successful is just giving people great things to share.

Jamie: And we just got this question from Andrew on Twitter. He said, “Is there ever a reason so much you just completely abandon all social media as a brand?”

Scott: Yeah. If you want your sanity back, sure. I mean, if you want a life outside of digital, yeah, please do. I’m envious of people who aren’t, potentially, on it. I think that there’s no such thing as mandatory social media. You don’t have to be on there. We need to make that clear that you don’t have to use it, that you can have lived your life probably better, you can run a business without it. Mandatory social media is a term that has been forced upon us in not so many words when reality is you don’t have to. Now can it benefit you? Of course. Can it hurt you? Yes, and it can also be nothing. You can have an account, you can have it all set up there. You don’t do anything with it. If a tweet is sent and you have no followers, is it actually sent? You know, so there’s… We got to get rid of the fact that it’s okay not to be on it all the time. Or it’s the worst when people make you feel guilty or behind or dumb because you’re not using this platform that may or may not help you. They’re just tools.

I’d rather a restaurant never touched the internet if they provide incredible service. There’s brands out there that show to you, that prove that you don’t have to be on social. Focus first on product or service. Tell me where the Apple account is on social media. They don’t exist in social media. They don’t have to. Amazon barely has a presence on there. You wanna focus on customer first, and if the communication is part of it, then sure. Now obviously things like Apple also have a giant advertising budget to push it out and so they have other ways to do it. But this notion that we have to be on social and which three do I have to do is ridiculous and usually pushed by people who are selling social media services.

Alison: And it’s also worse in some ways. Like if somebody tells you you have to have an account or three accounts and you set them up and then you don’t have enough time to actually manage those accounts. So never mind pushing things out, but just replying, like, customer service-wise. So if you open an account for your restaurant and then someone comes in and has a complaint and they’re sitting right in your restaurant and they’re tweeting to your account that something’s wrong, and you don’t see that for weeks, if you ever see it at all, that actually makes the problem worse, because you put yourself out there saying you’re there like you’re in the room, in the virtual twitter room. And then when someone says something to you and they put up their hand, you don’t answer them, you’re gonna make whatever complaint they had so much worse. And so I would be very cautious when people say that you need to do it to make sure that it’s not just setting up your account and then you’re there, so you’re there, it’s taken care of. You need to set up your account and then if you’re gonna set up your account, you need to give it time to be there to, especially to answer questions. Like, for customer service, it’s fantastic if you’re gonna be there answering questions.

Jamie: Absolutely. Well, and I know you touched on…said the word “Periscope” earlier, but we had a ton of questions about Periscope. So I feel like that is officially the new hotness that everyone’s asking about. The general question a lot of people said are just, “What are your thoughts on it?” and then “A, should I be using it? And B, if I am using it, what are your tips for making that actually a good experience?” I feel like you have probably a lot to say there. So…

Scott: Yeah. You know, I guess since we’re both highly unemployed, our job is to stay on top of these things. That’s our only job. And I will always say frequently, you know, since we can’t stay on top of them and that’s our only job. So, but when it comes to Periscope, again, it’s a tool. So do you have to use it? No. Can you use it? Yeah. The first question is, what do you wanna get out of it? What do you wanna get out of anything when it comes to digital or real time or video or streaming? Why? Answer me that. Why?

Alison: And if the answer is because it’s the new cool thing, it’s the wrong answer.

Scott: That’s the wrong answer, “Because I can talk to the world with my arms stretched out and do it.” That’s a bad reason. That’s actually the reason you shouldn’t be using it. Periscope itself, we enjoyed it. We’ve done behind the scenes at the UnPodcast. We’ve shown people the studio. They liked it. Our fans or viewers, our listeners enjoyed that as far as we know, but it’s very hyperactive on one side where you just have these random things popping up in questions and you’re looking at the questions, you’re trying to look at the camera. And I gotta be honest with you, and I don’t know how everybody’s gonna take this, most people are not good on video. You’re just not. It’s not a natural medium for most people, yet you think if you can’t sit in front of a camera normally and say something, yet you’re gonna hold something out on your arm and started wobbling around and talking. Periscope is like, I think Latin for crappy video.

I love doing it. I was behind stage before a Keynote talking to some people, saying, “I’m about to go on.” For behind the scenes looks at stuff, it’s phenomenal. I think it’s great. A chef at a restaurant doing something like that or I saw…the British Columbia, Tourism BC in the West Coast here in Canada did a thing with a beekeeper. There was 4 million bees and the person was interviewing the person. That was great. That’s stuff you don’t see. I just don’t… Periscope shouldn’t be at a worse version of what we’re showing now because it’s quote live, plus if you don’t have a Twitter presence, if you don’t have a platform on Twitter, you’re gonna get no viewers. And you know what’s more awkward than people doing video? People doing video and nobody watching. Like, that’s even worse.

So I don’t think that it’s got a lot of applications. We’ve enjoyed it, but we have a Twitter platform and at the end of the day when I say, “Well, people liked it and stuff,” what did I get out of it? I don’t know. I got to look at myself on my phone camera for a long period of time. I got a lot of hearts. So I got 13,000 hearts on Periscope right now that, if I convert that to cash, zero. So I don’t know. But you know why we did it? It’s fun. That’s okay. Sometimes that’s okay. Now you don’t wanna sell a platform saying, “Well, Bob, we’re just gonna have some fun.” But we liked it. It was cool. But we are also people who’ve been involved with video for a very long time, so we knew the kind of the ins and outs of it, but it’s just you got learn some angles, people. Learn angles and lighting.

Alison: I think taking the fan base, once you have that fan base, taking them behind the scenes or showing them something extra and cool. I think it’s very cool. And I think now that, you know, the technology’s caught up to it so people can watch it on their phones very easily, I think that’s cool. But, I mean, as a place to start, I don’t know.

Scott: There’s a Periscope live event happening at a conference, like, next week, and I can’t imagine what it’s gonna look like.

Alison: I couldn’t watch it.

Scott: [crosstalk 00:24:29] wondering around saying, “I am at the periscope event. I’m at the Periscope event.” And Periscoping the person at the Periscoping at the Periscoping event.

Alison: I couldn’t watch it. Oh Man. Well… But maybe it’s your thing, like, somebody is gonna be…

Scott: Oh yeah, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.

Alison: Here, someone’s gonna be the next Periscope star and they’re going to be like, we were wrong. I’m okay with that.

Jamie: And now we have a question from the sea of Periscope. No we don’t. But this is actually…you kind of touched earlier, and I think you guys make a great point. It’s your job to actually stay on top of the trends, and you’re struggling to do it. I think, we had a question from William who asks, “What is the best resource that you guys use to kind of keep current on the trends?” And I think just, you know, lay it all out there for everybody.

Scott: Yeah. So on my side of things, that my community is my curators. So I follow…Alison aside, I follow the snarkiest, most bitter people in business. So if it gets through their BS filter and…okay, Alison is part of that, she has the best filter I know, that if they share it, I go look at it. And I rely on my community on that, on Twitter and on Facebook to see what they say. I also set up a…still the old school Google News Alerts and one of the things we are working on talking about a lot more these days is the millennial myth and, you know, how people are making an excuse of, you know, marketing millennials or working with them. So I set up a Google News Alert three weeks ago on millennials and it comes up.

So that just keeps me on top. And then when it comes to actual resources, you mentioned before Jay Baer’s stuff and Convince and Convert. It’s phenomenal. “MarketingProfs” and Ann Handley put out killer stuff. There’s a email company, Emma, that puts out great…

Alison: She is great.

Jamie: Thanks.

Scott: …great content. But, all things said before, we even had you as a sponsor, you put out great, actual content with actual, real data and things like that. You know, you grab a couple of them, and the problem is you don’t want to get that overwhelmed. You don’t wanna get that overload of content. So I used to be subscribed to 40, 50 marketing industry newsletters and I thought that was my…just staying on top of it. What happened was it just created an inbox overwhelm for me. And so now I got a core few of them. Also Scott Monty puts out a fantastic…former head of social and digital at Ford, puts out a great weekly thing of just curated kind of links from around that would be interesting to marketers. I would sign up for that in a heartbeat. When it comes into my inbox, I just stop what I’m doing and I read it. And that’s really the reaction that should be that in anybody’s email newsletter for sure.

Alison: We just read a lot. I would say that if a certain topic or something is interesting to you, then give it the time to read other people’s stuff. Like, way too often we’ll run into somebody at a conference or someone will ask us a question about how to get other people to read their content. Meanwhile, they’re not dedicating any part of their work time to reading other people’s content. And, like, we spend a ton of time reading other people’s work articles, I mean, across the board, everything from really traditional media to, you know, like the people that Scott mentioned, to things that are curated on Twitter and based on topic that we might be looking at, particularly. Like, millennials was one such topic. And we spend time reading and, you know, that’s part of what we were talking about, about giving to the community. Like, you can’t…especially with email, like, you have to give content and give your time and your eyes onto things to be able to expect to learn anything and also to have people come back to you. I would say we’re kind of also in a bit of a privileged position that we have become kind of a place people like to tell their stories.

Scott: When it hits the fan, marketing needs to know.

Alison: Yeah. And I think that based on the, you know, the reputation that Scott Stratten has built and that’s grown with the UnPodcast, you know, when something happens, we know about it very quickly because we will get email and tweets and notifications. “Did you see this, did you see this, did you see this?” So part of it has become that we’ve put ourselves out there to be people who aren’t afraid to talk about these things. And so very often, we have a community that brings those stories to us. We’re very lucky.

Scott: You never want your brand name to come after the email we get daily that says, “Did you see this?”

Alison: Did you see this? It’s not good. So yeah, reading and research, a lot of it.

Jamie: Yeah. Well, and, and you know, I think to that end, we have a question with Scott who’s saying…a different Scott, “What is the biggest mistake that you see people doing out there? Is it that they’re not reading enough?” Is it that they’re sending things to millennials that are completely off tone? Like, what is kind of one of the biggest themes of, like, please stop doing that, if you could yell that someone?

Scott: How much time do you have? How much time do we got? I think one of the big problems that people in digital market make a lot is they make personal preference the brand preference in communication. So they’re used to Facebook, so that’s where they’re gonna stick. And, you know, we said this at the Emma Marketing United event that My Space has 50 million active monthly users. Twitter has 59 million. So you can’t tell me one’s good and not the other just because you don’t use it. And so we got to be careful that our own demographic personally for our own professional development is not the same potentially as the platforms for which we need to use for the brand. It’s a very easy to make mistake that I make personally myself as well. We brush off the stuff we don’t know or don’t use or don’t like, so you need to be careful with that. And also the force content side of things when it comes to putting it out on those communities is, you know, we have to put something out weekly because that’s our schedule…that, you know, nobody shares a blog post because it’s Tuesday. They share it because it’s good.

Alison: And there’s this general lack of respect for our customers and the people on the other end of that email. Like we understand why you want to send out your email. We understand why you wanna send out your request for business or you want to send out your request for people to share your content. We totally understand that, but this lack of respect for the inbox and the person on the other end of that and how many email we get, and then it just erodes. It erodes.  Once you start sending out those emails, you erode the list, you erode people’s attention to you, you create this apathy around your name. And we spend so long trying to build up lists, and then once we have them, we’re just like, we don’t respect the person on the other side of the content. And you have to…once you start eroding it, it’s very, very hard to get people who already think that you’re gonna send them junk to come back into your funnel. Like, we’re so worried about adding new people or making the sale right away that we’re not thinking about respecting the people we already have, nurturing the relationships we already have and, you know, bringing those return business people back to us. And so I think that lack of respect is a huge problem.

Scott: What was the last time you had unsubscribed to a newsletter and then resubscribed? Doesn’t happen.

Jamie: Absolutely. And to that into, you know, how do you continue… James asks, “How do you continue to engage customers when you don’t have a recent product?” So I think it kind of goes with what you guys were saying. How do you sort of pick the cadence of how you communicate things when maybe you don’t have any pressing news to share?

Scott:  When you don’t have a new product is the best time to talk to them. If you only talk to your customers when you have something to sell them, then you know, that… Now mind you, there’s a time and place to have a thing that just sells stuff, that I don’t want content from Amazon. You know what I mean? I don’t want a notification that the thing I bought 17 times in the past two years is on sale. I don’t want Stub Hub telling me their thoughts on the ticket market place. I just wanna know when Detroit Lions tickets are on sale so I can go cry in person at the stadium that they’re on sale. So there’s a time and…it depends on what…we’ve talked about it before. When I get the permission to market to you, what have I given you the permission to do? So if I’m signing up for content, then I want the content. If I’m signing up for product notifications, I want… And if I sign up for updates on products and stuff, and what do you send them when you have nothing to say? You don’t send them anything.

Alison: That’s okay. No one’s gonna say, “Oh my goodness. The email didn’t come on Tuesday.”

Scott: “I didn’t get an email from the fax company that we signed up for.”

Alison: “Something must be wrong.”

Scott:  “Something must be…” You know, I’m gonna break it to everybody listening right now. Nobody cares that you haven’t sent them anything. Now somebody in your higher ups might care. We haven’t sent a thing because Jay Baer talked about it with us at Marketing United when we did the UnPodcasts on stage, was, you know, you have the person in bean counting and saying, “Every time we send out a product email, we make x amount in sales. It’s near the end of the quarter, send it.” So I get that struggle. There’s a struggle with that. But my whole thing is just the best time not to send anything is, is anytime you have nothing to say. And the forced…it’s just killer, is the force content, the forced ability to…we have to send something to you because we have your email now. It’s painful, I think, respecting the inbox. There’s gotta be a compromise there. Having that intersect of frequency versus quality of content has to meet and that one can’t supersede necessarily the other.

Jamie: Absolutely. Well, and you know, we had a lot of questions along these lines, but Page sort of specifically asked it really well. “Healthcare isn’t sexy.” She writes, “Communicating in an engaging way is a constant challenge. What should we do?” So, you know, kind of, to your point earlier, you know, you don’t want Amazon necessarily emailing you every day. That’s, you know, about things that are irrelevant. How do you sort of coach a brand that maybe has a challenge where they’re not a consumer product, they’re maybe not as sexy of a brand to sort of navigate this digital landscape? Like, what sort of things should they send, basically?

Alison: I would just say that, I mean, one of the things that strikes me about this question is I think that a lot of products that are, like, maybe super niche or, like, not everyone uses would think that healthcare is great because most people, most humans are in some way interested with their health or the health of the people that they work with or love or in their family. So I think that first off, I wouldn’t negate how sexy you might think that because you’ve been working the same thing maybe for a certain period of time. You may not think it’s so sexy, but I would remember that your product or your service should be solving some kind of pain point for…and in this case may be really a pain point, but at some kind of pain point for your customers. And so think about that. Like, think about, you know, why you’re doing it. And it doesn’t need to be…and helpful and true and useful. You know, it doesn’t need to be flashy, it just needs to be answering a problem for your customers. And everybody should be able to do that if they’re in business, because otherwise they wouldn’t be buying your product.

Scott: I never thought sexy would be so much on a webinar, we should use it more. New hashtag is #sexonar. [SP]

Alison: Yeah, hey wait. I was gonna say unsexy and then that wasn’t as good.

Scott: Sexonar, I like it. It’s better. The issue with that segue, the problem is people think of has to be sexy. It has to be great, hot, and it’s gotta be this and…no. Most content isn’t. Most content isn’t like that. But being compelling is. What is more compelling than healthcare? What is more compelling than somebody’s life? But the thing is, when she says healthcare, you know, that’s about us saying, you know, our industry is humans. It really has to drill down to what exactly we’re talking about. But let’s say you are a part of a diabetes medication, there’s so much content there that it’s not sexy, but it’s relevant. And that’s the key to the world of content to me is relevancy to your audience.

So there’s so many industries that would kill to have the sexiness of a healthcare side of things. People selling, you know, car insurance would just kill to have the relevance that that side of it is. So I think our biggest hurdle, the content, it’s our own thought of our own market, and sometimes we’ve been in our job or industry a long time, so to us it’s not sexy. To us, it’s not that crazy topic. I used to train people how to sell bubble wrap.

Alison: You wanna talk about not sexy.

Scott:  I sold air to people and we could create content. You can’t tell me your industry doesn’t, we’re just looking in the wrong spots. In healthcare, I’d be interviewing professionals in the industry of what they’re doing or patient questions or whatever those type of things are. I would be doing it. A lot of times there’s a hurdle, there is an excuse in those industries whether it’s finance, whether it’s pharmaceutical, whether it’s healthcare, whether it’s government saying, “Well, we can’t because we have all these legislative type of things we can’t do.” But most of it’s an excuse. I’ve dealt with, I’ve worked with those industries and so much of it is saying, “We can’t because of the adverse reaction laws when it comes to a medication,” or something. Like, nobody’s asking you to break down the chemicals in your product. What they’re asking you is to create content potentially on your site that has a compelling…a video series about the things that can help people. Healthcare helps people, and I think there’s nothing more compelling than that.

Jamie: I think that’s fantastic and, you know, obviously, you guys do this really well. Congrats. So you know, what I think a lot of people have a question about is sort of like how you guys built your audience, and specifically, it’s Jason. He said, “How did you build your audience for ‘UnMarketing’?” And I think you’ve kind of touched on it, but sort of what was that specific journey like? How did this begin?

Scott: I paid really well originally, five bucks a signup.

Alison: He didn’t.

Scott: No, I just started with…way back in the day. And this was before the term content marketing existed, or social media existed. I started in marketing about 12, 13 years ago. And I just started with a funnel in mind and I started creating content, just started writing stuff. And holding back then was teleseminars and you called into a bridge line and you held the phone to your ear as long as you could. And it was just, I found a nerve that was struck with me first, which I think is the most important, which then resonated with other people. And that was the, you know, selling, you know, with your grain instead of against your grain marketing and not against your grain, but with it, not being a hypocritical marketing where you hate getting spam or flyers or cold calls, but you do it for your own business. And so we just started doing that and started building a list with that.

And then, you know, social media started exploding in 2008. I joined twitter and that’s really where the platform started growing. The most where I got the notice and the size where a publisher would come to me, that’s where we met was on twitter. So talk about ROI. I win, I win, everybody. I won the Twitter ROI. So, and then I started building a platform, but I had to start focusing on it and I joined in April ‘08. And my reaction was a lot like most people listening or watching right now, which was, this is kind of dumb. And it’s kinda like, oh, I had scrambled eggs for breakfast, whoopity doo, who cares? But then January, ‘09, I decided to live on the platform for a month to say, “Look, I’m gonna give it the college try here.” I’m gonna say, I didn’t want to brush it off like, like being a normal marketer in saying if I don’t use it, nobody should. So I lived on it and I tweeted 7,000 times that month and 80-something percent of those were replies though. So it wasn’t just me talking about my scrambled eggs, it was everything. And I went from $1,200 to $10,000, and then I just never got off it.

And that’s really…it’s just anything in business. Ask anybody who’s been successful or not successful in business. It’s a combination of skill, luck and timing. And that’s kinda how it worked for me and that’s how it worked for us. And that’s hard to start building that following. And it really helps because it’s not on purpose. It’s not an act. We’re really polarizing.

You know, I take a stand, and good or bad, people react. And when they react, they spread it, they share it, and if you make them angry or happy, you know, it’s [inaudible 00:40:17]. But I’m passionate. I think passion is contagious and therefore when we joined forces together with Alison that we’re both passionate. That’s what comes out in the UnPodcast and the show is we’re passionate about topics, and we don’t always agree and it ends up her being right.

Alison: Always, 100%.

Scott: But I think that attracts me to brands. What attracts me to people who create content is that you take a stand and people are just so vanilla that they wanna stand, you know, straddling the fence, and that’s uncomfortable. That’s not a way good way to stand in life.

Alison: I would say also, like, when Scott was building that platform on Twitter, this asking for anything was never part of that. Like, I can’t remember the number. It’s an on ‘‘UnMarketing,’’ but with how many times Scott had tweeted before there was ever a product, like, or before…

Scott: 10,000 tweets.

Alison: 10,000 tweets before anything was ever brought. So try and sit down and look at your ideas for social media and be prepared to commit to, you know, really giving to the ecosystem before it’s gonna take. You can’t just think that things are gonna come to you without giving to the community. It doesn’t work that way.

Jamie: So beyond coining the #sexonar, Rayanne wants to know, “What is the craziest marketing tactic you tried that was wildly successful?”

Scott: Sexonar was pretty good.

Alison: What’s your favorite one?

Scott: I think that’s a tough one.

Alison: Scott, what’s your favorite?

Jamie:  It’s gonna be hard to beat.

Alison: I’m trying to think of what it might be.

Scott: We had some fun. We did a photo shoot in Hamilton. I held up…my sign was “Ban Candy Crush invites” and [inaudible 00:41:50]. I was doing a protest and it got millions of views. It didn’t do anything for the business wise. It was just fun. You know, it’s not necessary… We don’t do stunts, necessarily.

Alison: Yeah, [inaudible 00:42:02] true.

Scott: Like, you look at the videos that…you know, the one I did of the Facebook song and then we do…like, it’s just fun stuff. So it doesn’t necessarily equate a huge business. “Reflections of Motherhood” was the first thing that Alison and I worked on together for when Alison ran Nummies Nursing Bras, and we did a “Reflections of Motherhood” video. You just go to It’s the thing I’m most proud of, I think, for what we’ve done is…but for the behind the scenes of it, it’s a slideshow with music. And we asked moms if they could go back to before they had their first baby, what would they tell themselves? And then moms in the video just held up signs, you know, like “Google doesn’t have kids” and “Breathe” and, you know…

Alison: “Sleep now.”

Scott: “Sleep now” and things like that. And what happens is we just sent out a tweet and said, “Any moms wanna come down to the distillery district in Toronto, we’re gonna shoot some photos for this video.” And it just showed the community that we’d valued and built that… It was 25 moms showed up, no promise of pay. We gave them a Starbucks gift card and stuff, but they were there willing to give it. It’s still there, it’s [inaudible 00:43:10] about a million views of it now and it gets shared on every major parenting blog in the world and got in front of, you know, all the customers for. But that’s what we’re most proud of, if you want to consider that as stunt. And I don’t know how far and wide Sexonar would have got, but I think that it’s a…

Alison: We enjoy what we do. It’s not an act, it’s just we do fun things. We come up with different ideas and then we roll with them, and some of them are great and work really well and some of them we laugh about, we have fun making them anyway, but yeah, it’s…

Scott: Just have fun.

Alison: It’s not fake, you know?

Jamie:  What I think to that end, you know, there’s something about how you guys actually measure your success. I mean, because I think you just touched on it, you know, is it through, via ROI? I mean, obviously we have a ton of people asking questions about tracking their success on social and email and all that kind of stuff. What would you consider successful for you guys? I mean obviously twitter was successful in that you found each other. But on a daily basis, what do you guys use to really measure both technically and sort of anecdotally your success?

Scott: Well, we talked about this a while ago and, like, the success with ‘‘UnSelling’’ with the book when it came out last year, was when it was published, like when it was done being written. Because it was put out as we’re really proud of the book. We’ve learned over time and, you know, ask Alison anytime, when one of her books comes out, just checking rankings and sales and stuff. I’ve learned over the time to realize that for us, the best metric is saying, did we write that one good book that just came out? Is that good? Same as the shows, same as the UnPodcast. I can’t control listeners, I can’t control viewers. We walked out of that studio. We record four episodes at once. We do it once a month, we rent a studio in Burlington here and we walk out of the studio and I look at her and she looks at me and goes, ‘‘That was good. It was a good show. It was a good show.’’ That’s our only metric, because that’s the only one we can control. I can’t control views and retweets and shares. And that’s it for us is that we put out good content, good product that our audience…that we’d be proud to share, that we’d have proud to show, and we can’t control anything over and above that. So.

Alison: And I think sometimes when we talk to people at different companies that they’re not focusing enough, we don’t think, on the quality of that product that they’re putting out. And I think that’s not necessarily their fault. It’s just that, you know, reviews are coming or negative things are coming and they see it. And, like, we had a person in the audience kind of like, we’ve made it kind of a famous story for Scott. Stand up at the end of one of Scott’s talks and, you know, say, “Thank you, you’re very funny.” And Scott, he smiles and then she said, like, “We have this big problem with social media because people are giving us bad reviews online.” And then, like, “But the problem isn’t the bad reviews online…”

Scott: She says, “How do we fix it?”

Alison: Yeah, “How do we fix it?”

Scott: And I said, “You don’t have a Twitter problem, you have a business problem.” And she didn’t get it. Because we can’t control that feedback, you know. I did a keynote last year where I got 10 out of 10 [inaudible 00:46:14] everybody in their feedback, and I’ve learned not to rely on it, but there was one zeros across the board. And the guy wrote, “If I wanted to go see a comedy show, I would have gone to a comedy club. Like he was angry at himself laughing. Like, I was just picturing him like, “Haha, jackass.” He’s just so angry at himself laughing. That is not the time and place to be laughing. You can’t control it.

Alison: Yeah. And also the only real important numbers, the ones that you’re taking in for whatever reason you’re taking them in, like one of the things we were looking at it with email was, you know, of course there’s, like, Scott’s on old time with email marketing and checking what title you’re using and what the rates were like, and we love metrics and we love stats and data, and you should be checking. But the only one that should really be important to you is what’s happening in your business with your customers and not getting too carried away with, you know, that I should send something on Tuesday morning. Because that’s gonna be the most successful because that’s what this study said. Like, you need to be checking for yourself and asking yourself why you’re checking and why it’s important, and are you gonna use the information?

Jamie: Yeah. What are you gonna do with it afterwards? And I think there’s people listening now saying, “That’s nice, you don’t have bosses.” You know, you don’t have to be able to be accountable to a certain outside metric, whether it’s a vanity metric or not. And that’s true, I think that we’ve built it so we’re not relying on those things. So if you’re even looking at data points and what you’re…just be careful that those metrics are vanity ones that they’re just a like in a retweet, were as about as valuable at Starbucks as absolutely nothing. And so you we’re [inaudible 00:47:48] quotes flying around ‘‘lucky’’ that we don’t have that metric to say, “Well the book is only good if it sells 20,000 copies.” And we know we wrote “UnSelling” as a great book and we just know a million other people have yet to read it yet, you know, and we’re happy.

And on the other side of it, on the vanity side of it, we’re certainly had…all the books have sold into the five-figure unit numbers and the show is watched by at least nine people [inaudible 00:48:17]. That’s not…Emma sponsors that [inaudible 00:48:20] 19 people.

Alison: [inaudible 00:48:22] that later.

Scott: So, but that’s it. I think that we have personal metrics versus business metrics, and if we had an investor or something like that, that would be different.

Alison: But even then, you have to know…

Scott: The less I’ve cared about metrics…

Alison: The better we’ve done.

Scott: …the better we’ve done in business. We’re not like philanthropists, like, we don’t have a trust fund here. We built the business.

Alison: We [inaudible 00:48:43].

Scott: Yeah, we’re sitting in a house now that we bought because we built a business that didn’t necessarily live and die by those metrics. We wanted to put out great stuff. And it just so happens that people like stuff like that or hate it. Either way, they watch and they listen and they bought it, so.

Jamie: Well, and I think, in this question from Christopher here is he said, “The concept of the customer, consumer journey and experiences gaining ground. How do you get organizations, or your bosses, rather, over the idea of tactics and look at that sort of holistic picture?” So I think this goes along with what you guys were just saying where, you know, you guys are fortunate that you’re sort of, you’re doing it on your own, but how would you convince sort of someone above you or in your organization or your colleagues to sort of take that approach that is a little bit more authentic and holistic?

Scott: You gotta be careful when we throw in holistic. Yeah, you’ve gotta be careful that we don’t get into that “We are the world, let’s hold hands,” type of thing, because it’s a great song. It’s a great song, but it’s a bad thing when you are talking to somebody and you have one guy saying, here’s our email click-through rates and by rates, and the other guy walks in and goes, “I just got retweets,” and it doesn’t…you have to match the metrics with the mind you’re talking to. So by the way, the people who question, the unholistic…that’s a good hook. But the unholistic people, that’s okay. That’s actually good questioning why we’re doing things in different spaces and taking up time, resources, money. It’s a good question. You should be asking that. We should be asking that and saying, “Is it worth it?” But then you have to track that back to goals. And the key here is to find whatever metric it is, whatever needle you wanna move, find out where it is now and see if you can make it move up.

So if your thing is to reduce number of calls into our call center by using customer service on Twitter, then match that to where it’s gonna go. If your thing is gonna be one more sales, then okay, match that where you want it to go. And if it doesn’t match then it’s not a number issue, it’s what we’re doing is the issue. And I think tracking and tracing is certainly fine, but we also have to be careful about things like we didn’t find the long tail why we got to that point. I might have searched on Google for this product, but I also been talking to that brand for a month on Twitter. So, you know, metrics don’t tell all the stories all the time.

Alison: I think the jargon’s hard too. I think when you talk about social media and you say social media, that sometimes put something in somebody’s head, like, it’s like it’s a kid doing it or something. Whereas social media is just talking to other people. It happens to be through a certain set of tools. You wouldn’t, like, have phones in your company and not answer them. Like, that makes a lot more sense. Sometimes you have to think about, like, why you wanna use it, and if it’s because it’s next and cool, like, that’s probably not the right reason. If it’s because it’s communication and, you know, if it’s because it’s less expensive for a variety of reasons, like we talked about publicized customer service, so that when you provide customer service online, it’s actually in public. And if you do it well, other people are gonna see it. That makes more sense sometimes in, like, a way to convince people than saying, you know, a bunch of jargon about having to be on social media or likes or follows or whatever.  Does it mean something to someone? So you need to think about the language you’re already using in terms of success, particularly, and then come back to that with a new set of tools which is a set of social media tools or email tools or whatever those tools might be.

Jamie: I love that. And I think, you know, you guys do so much to help people kind of see the right way that they can do…or not even the right way, but the best way for their business that they could do it that feels authentic. And we had actually several people asking kind of aspirationally how they could be more like you, but specifically, I think, Tory put this really well. She said, “Any tips on becoming maybe eventually a speaker?” And you guys, for those on the line, Scott is a wonderful speaker. He spoke at our conference in the spring and, yeah, how did you get into that or how does that sort of naturally start to happen for people if that’s their goal?

Scott: Yeah. I was born missing a synapse or something in my brain that would create fear of public speaking.

Alison: He’s physically uncomfortable if people aren’t sitting watching him.

Scott: I’m, like, the opposite. I get nervous not speaking in front of people. When do I get to go onstage again? What am I going to do? So I also realized that I don’t wanna be the person that says, ‘‘It’s just easy. You just walk onstage and start talking. And you yell at people and they clap and you go home.” I’m lucky to have…that’s naturally part of my skill set. But I, you know, I started my first talk I ever did publicly, it was to 12 people in a library, a meeting room that half the class was people doing yoga next and they just were early.

Alison: They were not.

Scott: So yeah, I did a mall food court talk where the person at New York Fries was heckling me. The person at New York Fries was heckling me. You know, I think that speaking…and it doesn’t have to mean you wanna be a professional speaker necessarily, but just people speaking, and I think it’s a skill that is always valuable to people to be able to stand up in front of a room and capture attention. 

It doesn’t mean you have to be flailing around like me. I just think, for tips for people who want to do talks, is the first…I teach presentation skills and communication skills at college. And the whole thing was you have to learn first is that it’s not about you, it’s about what you’re saying. It’s the content, and nerves happen sometimes because you’re not comfortable with what you’re saying or you’re afraid of being called out, and then the fear of failing or screwing up, and nobody wants you to. And there’s a few sadistic people that are watching once in a while in life that hope you fall down. But for the most part, nobody wants you to screw up, they’re just happy they’re not the one standing in front of the room talking. And you take that with you, but there’s always gonna be a market and audience for people giving talks. There’s just endless conferences and trade.

You get this…live in Vegas and do four a day by the way it’s going. But the difference is, you know, to make a living doing it. And it’s very rare and were certainly lucky that that’s something that I love doing, the keynote, and then also with the UnPodcast is what we make a living off of. But speaking is one of the…if just like video, just like Periscope, if it’s something you’re good at or you like to do, it’s a great tool. If you’re not, it’s a train wreck. So be careful that everybody has to be a better speaker. I don’t think if that’s not in your wheel house, it’s okay, don’t swing it. But if you’d like it and you wanna go from good to great, it’s great. I’ve never been one to improve my weaknesses, I want to improve my strengths, and it just so happens that that for me is speaking.

So if you look at the division of labor in ‘‘UnMarketing’’ here, I’m the one that gets on stage and yells…

Alison: Aren’t you afraid of what you’re gonna say?

Scott: I yell and rant on podcasts, we’re even…and Alison is the writer. If that makes sense. So we found our strengths, and that’s where we combine them all. And then for every other task, we’ve got Karen, has been for 10 years now as the coordinator of awesome. I delegate my weaknesses and find other people to do it outside of the company or inside of it, which frees us up to do what we love.

So our job isn’t doing administrative all the time or…like with the UnPodcast, for example. I know this is getting a little outside of her question, but the UnPodcast is we go into the studio, we do the show and then we go home. Everything else is done. We have a video production company, we have a producer, we have a behind the sound board. We have one person whose sole job is to create notes for the show and then get it to where it’s supposed to go on the platforms is supposed to go to. The bottleneck in our company is me. Like, I’m the one that would hold things up. So we just found ways to get outside of that bottleneck.

Jamie: Well, I think that is great, and also we are running short on time, but I do want to sort of bring it home in a lighthearted way with, you know…as I stated earlier, you guys have a book called ‘‘QR Codes Kill Kittens,’’ which is a bit a bit edgy of a title. So we have a ton of people who are really worried about those kittens. And Heather specifically has asked, “Are you going to do a followup video about the death of QR codes?” Specifically, she does wanna know your current stance on them. But she also wants to know how many kittens have died thus far, if you have a prediction.

Alison: Scott has a great video about him talking about QR codes online, actually. It’s one of our most successful videos, so if she really wants to see a video, it’s out there.

Scott: But even recently, even now, it hasn’t changed. Like, it’s a 4-point…I can’t remember the number. I didn’t check this morning, but 4.2 kittens have died because they’re making a resurgence. The only thing that gets sent to me more than train wrecks of brands is QR code-based articles. And, you know, when Mashable put something out a month and a half ago saying, “They’re back,” and everybody’s like, “Uh-oh. [inaudible 00:57:34] in marketing?” And that’s how I still feel. I feel the same about…QR codes is just like my poster child for poor marketing choices, and it’s just…

Alison: It’s really the big example of just doing something because everyone else is doing it or doing something because it’s cool or because you wanted to use them because you wanna show that you’re using them instead of knowing why you’re using them.

Scott: QR codes is like my V is for vendetta mask. For me it’s like it’s just a covers everything, Spartacus. It’s just like everybody is that…it just is a symbol, literally and figuratively, a symbol of what’s wrong with marketing. People are like, “Whoa, but did you see Snapchat? They got the snap codes and now. So when you think about that, they’re tough guy?” And I’m like, I’ve always said they’re perfect in platforms that are built in the technology. If Apple comes out and that’s, I guess not this next phone, but the one after that and says, “Your camera will now natively read and recognize QR codes,” it changes the game, it changes the whole thing, but they still ha

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